The E-Comm Show
The E-Comm Show
From Break-Even to Backcountry Powerhouse: How Flylow Scaled Without Selling Out | EP. #195
Dan Abrams didn’t launch Flylow Gear with a business plan, he started with a vision to live life on his own terms. On this 195th episode of the E-Comm Show, Andrew Maff interviews Dan Abrams President and Co-founder of Flylow.
You’ll hear how Flylow stayed true to its roots while evolving from a scrappy DTC brand just trying to break even into a wholesale champion—and how they navigated that shift without sacrificing control. Dan also breaks down why fashion is more regional than most marketers think, how authenticity in marketing doesn’t always need a mission statement, and why quality and function will always sell (especially in the mountains).
Whether you're scaling wholesale, thinking about fulfillment solutions, or just want a masterclass in staying authentic while growing fast—this episode is your jam.
What You’ll Learn:
- Why Flylow never needed a “defined” mission to stay authentic
- How they transitioned from 95% DTC to owning wholesale
- The smart logistics move that helped them scale without blowing up operations
- What most marketers get wrong about how people buy outdoor fashion
- Why word of mouth still wins—if your product can back it up
Watch the full episode below, or visit TheEcommShow.com for more.
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You could say we didn't really know what we were doing, or you could say that it was an organic approach.
Andrew Maff:Welcome to the E comm Show podcast. I'm your host. Andrew MAFF, owner and founder of blue tusker, from groundbreaking industry updates to success stories and strategies, get to know the ins and outs of the e Commerce Industry, from top leaders in the space. Let's get into it. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the E comm show. As usual. I am your host, Andrew MAFF, and today I am joined by the amazing Dan Abrams, who is the president and co founder over at fly low gear. Dan, how you doing, buddy? You ready for a good show?
Dan Abrams:I'm doing good. Thanks for having me!
Andrew Maff:Beautiful. I am very excited to have you on the
Dan Abrams:Right on. Uh, well, I always kind of wanted to show. Really cool product line, amazing story in the background. I know you've got a ton of experience in the space and very interested to hear a lot of the story, but I was like, kind of starting these off pretty stereotypically, give you the floor and just tell us a little bit about how you got started, where you're at in your career, and obviously more about Flylow figure out a way to live life on my own terms, I guess, is the best way to say it. Looking back, I always thought about, you know, different businesses I could start, ways that I could have a balance in life, I guess, and Flylow just happened be the one that worked out. I, you know, I played music for a while and ran bands. I bartended and then started some little fledgling, little projects on the side that didn't work out. But eventually, this idea that I had with my group of friends from college and we went to school up in the late 90s, in in the Pacific Northwest, this idea of making mountaineering quality equipment for skiing and snowboarding, you know, clothing in particular, it has worked out. It's kind of crazy.
Andrew Maff:That's good. What did you see in the market, right? Like, mountaineering quality, like, What do you mean by that, like, if I'm, if I'm completely new to it, and I'm thinking of, like, the Patagonias and stuff of the world, like, where did they fall flat? That you were like, Okay, here's, here's the the area that we need to focus on.
Dan Abrams:Yeah, you know, a lot of a lot of business is timing and, you know, and ignorance is bliss, being willing to challenge companies like Marmot and Patagonia and the North Face. But you know, at that time, snowboarding was cool.Mountaineering apparel made the best apparel, which was light and somewhat durable. And then skiing was really coming from ski fashion and apparel was coming from a ski race background, which meant that it was designed to cover up, you know, speed suits, warm ups and then be taken off. You know, if you're talking about, like the pinnacle of skiing at that time, this idea of backcountry skiing was really, you know, like a subculture, a really small subculture. There was steep skiing and the North Face steep tech stuff that was out there, but it really wasn't what we wanted. Andgoing skiing at crystal mountain, which is outside of Seattle and has this kind of funky open gate policy, where they have kind of a hybrid inbounds, out of bounds, backcountry situation where you go through these, these avalanche gates, um, into the south back, and you go for these boot packs, and you climb the silver King, and you ski and you get powder. And what we realized was that when we were climbing with our skis on our shoulders or on our back. The equipment that we had, this ski stuff, really wasn't suited to go for a boot pack, and so you'd get to the top, you'd be just covered in sweat, and especially in the Pacific Northwest, like moisture is what is the downfall of all climbers and skiers there. Once you're wet, you're cold. So we had to figure out how to stay dry. We started looking into wearing mountaineer gear. And mountaineer gear was light. They were the only ones using what we call a three layer fabric. So when you pick up a waterproof garment and it's just it looks like one sheet of fabric, that's actually what we consider three layers, because you have the outer fabric that's like textured and has the color. And then there's your membrane, like your Gore Tex, or intuitive is, you know, our proprietary and then there'll be a third layer that protects that waterproof membrane from you. And what we realize is that waterproof is easy. A Ziploc bag is waterproof, but breathability is what you're paying for. And so we we started taking out the mountaineering stuff, and what we realized is that it was light and tight. You had to stretch it to fit over your legs, so the fabric became taught, and the stuff just didn't last for what we were doing, because it wasn't designed to climb a mountain and ski down it with four sharp edges, and we started using the great warranty programs, and we were dirtbag, you know, college kids. And eventually I had this idea, what if we mashed it up? What if we, you know, made a mountaineering pant in a mountaineering factory that made it fit like a ski pant, so that it actually fit over your boots. Let's make it as cool as a snowboard pant, um, and, you know, like, and take care of the snowboarders. And then, okay, let's just go ahead and make it burlier than anything else that anybody else has ever seen. And mind you, like I didn't know how to make clothes, so I erred on the side of ultra durable fabrics, thick seam tape that wasn't going to come undone. And then we added inner and outer thigh vents, which we call cross flow venting, so that you could actually cool yourself down and not sweat out all of your base layers on the way up. And then you could shut it all down, and you could ski down at 4050, miles an hour through powder and have it be waterproof. And what wound up happening was a unique product that people thought was crazy. It was different and and it's how we got here today.
Andrew Maff:It's pretty cool you went through all that trial and error to figure out, obviously, what was clearly missing, especially as that, uh, starting to get more and more popular. Did you bootstrap the whole thing, or did you end up getting investment, at least in the early days?
Dan Abrams:Um, I bootstrapped the whole thing so I see I started out it was like, it was like the easy, it was the early 2000s and I was bartending, and I, you know, started, started working in the restaurant, you know, like as a busboy. Within two years, I was the bar manager, which meant I controlled the schedule, which meant I controlled the money, and I was pretty good at that, and I made good money, probably about 70 grand a year. Didn't declare all of it, but I paid back my taxes. Don't worry. Flylow covers me pretty good these days, or covers, you know, my liabilities and and then I also use credit cards. So this was, you know, 2005, 2006 this is the peak of subprime mortgages, which I was able to get one, and I was able to buy a house with zero down, which was amazing. And then I was able to call Chase Manhattan and the United mileage PLUS credit cards. And I got two, and they gave me $60,000 lines of credit on both of them with convenience checks, which back then the convenience check said minimum 3% maximum $175 transaction fee to get a nine month loan for 2.9% or sometimes it would be 0% for six months, and that's all I needed. Were these bridge loan. So eventually I would write a convenience check to myself from both of them, and then I'd add$120,000 of low interest debt bartending money to pay the minimum payments. And I did, you know, eventually start raising capital using promissory notes, which was, you know, you know, borrowing money from friends and family. I actually got my dad to lend me 20 grand when I started, and under his breath, he said, Well, here's a lesson in squandering $20,000 and I paid him back. Now, I know, I know I paid him back in three years with interest, and he was blown away. So yeah, that's how I did it. And then eventually, when I needed more cash, I invited my college buddy Greg Steen, co founder, and he left Jackson,Wyoming and came down to Denver to help really get Flylow off the ground. And he was waiting tables selling nice bottles of wine, and I was bartending, and you know, we agreed to all to take the same amount of money, the same salary, which was nothing for about four or five years, and we got the company going.
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Andrew Maff:That's amazing. That's always, it's always such a cool story. When you hear about the like, the true entrepreneurial kind of like effort that you have to put into it, where it's you're bootstrapping it, and you're going years on end with no salary, and, you know, you came up with a cool idea that you're just going to take a swing and hope that it works out, and obviously now, like you guys have your eight figure brand, I mean, that's not that's not easy to do, especially in the apparel space, which is a nightmare, even though, obviously you have a very clear differentiator, like from a functionality standpoint, it's still really hard to do in apparel. So what, what was like the from a marketing perspective, what was the move there? I would imagine that that audience probably really resonates with the product line. But like, what do you do to kind of get or what did you do to get involved in that audience to kind of keep everything scaling up as you've been?
Dan Abrams:You could say we didn't really know what we were doing, or you could say that it was an organic approach. But I think that authenticity with the marketing has always been there, that we were always telling our story, and we didn't really know we didn't need to have it defined, what our mission statement was and and how we were going to market. We were just out there guerrilla marketing. I had T shirts in my pocket. I went to every movie premiere I could, and would pirate those and and get stickers out. And eventually, I found that it was really hard to sell the brand to sales reps at first, but I could sell it to media, and then I could sell it to stores. I could sell it to store owners in particular. And I have prescribed to the wholesale marketing method. I firmly believe in independent wholesale as the best marketing that you can do, and that we should all support independent brick and mortar wholesale, um, it gets the fabric in the hands and and it allows people to try it on. It's the most environmentally sustainable because we send large shipments via ground to the stores, and there's no returns. There's no shipping of returns. And in doing so, I was able to get the core, the best skiers and snowboarders in the industry to wear our stuff, because they were the people working in the stores. They're the people that that are in their post grad ski bum years, and they're going to be wearing the stuff. And then when they graduate from, you know, like, either they make it in a ski town or they have to leave the ski town, which was my scenario. I only lasted in Jackson Hole for nine months before I blew my knee out, moved back to my mom's house, started bartending and started Flylow. And I'm very thankful that I hurt my knee, um, and that I didn't see caretakers in my roommates in Jackson. But you know, most of those people that would get that would start wearing Flylow, they would then, then go back to the city to pursue a career, so that hopefully they could get back to the mountains. And what we realized was that eventually I hired some, I think of them as Big Brother, Big Sisters, some people that used to work at larger companies, but didn't want to work in a city. They wanted to be remote, and I allowed them to be remote. And one of them was this guy, Jeff Wagaman, and I still work with him. And he stayed in Jackson Hole after cloudvale, a former, you know, big brother ski clothing company had been sold. And he actually did a deep dive into marketing, into what the message is that Flylow does, because I couldn't answer the question then, but now I can, because Jeff filtered it down and he realized after interviewing 100 Flylow customers, that the common trend is that we all want to live life on our own terms. We all have built a life where we don't emphasize a huge amount of wealth, but we want security. We want to be able to take time off to go ski on a powder day. We want to be able to go to Verbier if we want to go for a big ski trip that year. But we're not looking for multiple homes, and we're not looking for, you know, we don't place the emphasis on, you know, the badge that's on, you know, the front of our car, it's experience. It's owning our own time. And so in the end, you know, that's what we figured out, is that our mission statement is to inspire people to live a life on their own terms in the mountains. And whether it's when you vacation in the mountains, or you have your heart is and where you like to spend your time is in the mountains, or you live up here, you know, we're here and we're part of your community, and Flylow really is just a reflection of that community.
Andrew Maff:Yeah. I mean, it makes a ton of sense. I definitely agree the wholesale marketing side, like, especially for an audience like yours, like, typically, they're shopping in those more mom and pop stores, which is fantastic. Sometimes you have other apparel brands, which it's a lot more difficult because their audience is only shopping in, like, more of the big box stores, which is, to your point, is kind of a nightmare. What about from like a digital perspective, it sounds like you're crushing it from like a word of mouth perspective, everyone is on the mountain. They're all talking about it. It eventually picks up steam. You get that word of mouth going. But what about anything from a digital perspective. Do you lean in on those professionals that you've worked with from like, an influencer perspective, or is it more of like standard advertising approach, like, what is that working for you?
Dan Abrams:I think, well, that to tell the story of our E comm business when we first started, you know, we were 95% direct to consumer, because no one knew who we were. We had a couple stores. We were just barely trying to break even every year now yo. And then fast forward 10 years into it, where we become the champion of wholesale. And these larger vendors are really hard to deal with they, they bully you. And also, if you're, like, maybe a mom and pop store that isn't the best credit you know, like you may be our credit risk, then, like, that was an opportunity for us to get into those stores and take that risk. And sometimes it bit me in the butt. So eventually we became 95% wholesale and 5% direct to consumer, which didn't have the right margin, and we started fighting the fight to become, you know, to be become more robust in Ecomm. And now what we're seeing is that brick and mortar wholesale continues to grow for us, and that larger online players are struggling. They are struggling to compete with, I think, the storytelling that we do, you know, like that we're so focused on our brand, they can't keep the breadth of inventory that we have when it comes to shorts and talls, larger sizes, all the colors and stuff and and so forth. So I'm we're seeing Flylow gear.com become, you know, the most prominent online store. And that's a change from the beginning of the pandemic, if you will. And the way we do that is, you know, yes, we use our influencers. We believe in all those pros the ski patrol, the guides are the most influential, whether you're part of the guide group or you just see the guide and our athletes. And then we also participate in performance marketing, which we actually didn't do until three years ago, the outdoor industry. You know, when the outdoor industry has gone through this, this cycle of pandemic craziness, where everybody canceled their orders at the beginning, and then that fall of 2020 there was a bum rush of sales people couldn't get enough. So then in 2021 we make enough, and in 2022 there was too much inventory. So by 2023 we're just trying to get rid of inventory. 2024 excess inventory, and now we've reset the deck. Well, what that allowed us to do was it gave us the excess inventory from canceled big box store orders to actually justify doing the performance marketing, and we're slaying it. And the and the performance marketing is good for supporting that, the wholesalers, the independent wholesalers, because it's the print magazines, have gone away. So it's our only way to do it. And we really try to focus not on like, on like, Hey, we're on sale. And actually, you'll see a lot of other brands right now are, whether they're direct to consumer only, or you'll like or they have a wholesale mix, they are going on sale at the beginning of the summer, and they're going on sale in November, even if it's 20 off, like they are telling that messaging and that does no good for your independent brick and mortar. And we do not do that. We stay full price until February 15 every year, and and I think that our customers, they respect it, or they just have to deal with it because, you know, like, because we're not, we're too small of a company. We're still bootstrapped, and we're not looking to delegitimize the brand by making excess inventory, making inventory that would go to close out. So it all plays into the mix.
Andrew Maff:You're, you know, to your point of kind of going more DTC now and growing the E commerce side. But obviously you haven't given up on your wholesale, your retail opportunities, I would imagine operationally, that's got to be still a bit of a challenge, right? Because you've got now traditional just D2C, orders going out, but then you also have your larger wholesale and retail orders going on, am I right?
Dan Abrams:Yep, yep. It's created an interesting mix.
Andrew Maff:Yeah
Dan Abrams:We have owned our own fulfillment in Denver for years, and it got to the point in the, you know, at the beginning of the pandemic, when larger orders coming in, and we doubled in size in in two, three years, we came up with a creative solution, where we outsourced our wholesale channel to a three PL, and we use NRI, and they're great. We love NRI because they are based in Kamloops, Canada, in British Columbia, so that, but then most of their businesses outside of LA, so we can have one three PL that covers us in Canada and in the United States. And then we actually just went in with their UK distribution center so that we can take care of distributors without bringing that stuff into the United States or Canada first. So it just goes to an EU member, and then we can disperse there. And then we've been fulfilling, and to this date, are still fulfilling our website orders ourselves.
Andrew Maff:Interesting. That's a, yeah, I can imagine. It's, it's a challenge with all that, those different areas going on. And are you shipping overseas as well? Do you have an audience in Europe, anywhere else?
Dan Abrams:We we were, but it wasn't enough business to justify it. And as things got bigger, and, you know, like and things get more complicated, we decided we're focused on the United States and on Canada. We do have distribution in Australia and New Zealand, and at times we've had distribution in Italy and Japan, but for now, we're focused on North America. And you know, honestly, when I look around at Europe and the European market, I draw a lot of inspiration from the brands that are there, that don't come here. And it makes me think about how regional fashion is and how there are these beautiful brands like Sweet Protection and Peak Performance, Jack Wolfskin me a EIder, the list goes on of all these European brands, they don't, they don't really come to the US market. And now that we're in this new tariff regimewhere US manufacturers need to get out of China, because we don't know what's happening, and even the current tariffs that are in place are just making it impossible, you know, basically US brands, or anybody that wants to sell in theUS, needs to manufacture outside of China, which creates a vacuum of amazing, good people that make great product in China. And so I see it as like a further separation, where these European brands, they should be producing in China, I would, if I could, and then, but that means that they're not going to sell that inventory here, which is going to create another vacuum. So, you know, like the American market really has to look to American brands.
Andrew Maff:Interesting. I never thought of that. What's okay? So obviously, staying focused on the States and Canada. What's the plan for growth from here? Is it product line expansion? Obviously, some brands, they'd make, especially apparel brands, they make bigger, bigger strategic moves, like getting into licensing and things like that. Like, what's your thought on what the next big play is?
Dan Abrams:I think, you know, like, from the origins of our brand, like, one of the reasons why we didn't get, you know, like, kind of that traditional seed round of funding after years of, you know, like using credit cards and bartending, because eventually that that money did go away in 2008 when the financial crisis hit, the credit crunch hit, those awesome termswere gone, and so we started raising money in a more traditional way, and that economic slowdown allowed us to organically grow, and we organically grew until we were a player, and then the pandemic just blew us up and doubled us well, now we're back to that organic growth. And so that's one thing, is that we're looking to just make sure that we have this solid business at eight figures, you know, like that supports our employees jobs, that we don't have to do layoffs. And so we're not going to quote, unquote, swing for the fence. That being said, this is our 20th year, you know, 2005 to 2025 we are now coming out with our first Gore Tex product. We have established ourselves as making the bestpants and bibs in the market. And Gore Tex wanted their fabric in our bibs, and we wanted their fabric in our bibs. And so, kind of like chocolate and peanut butter, we got a pretty sweet product coming out this year, and I think that might be the future. Is like, you know, now that we, you know, like, not to put it in your car racing Formula One terms, but now that we have the Ferrari engine, you know that all of our competitors, whether it's Arcteryx or Patagonia or North Face, are playing with like, you know, now we're just going to use the engine. We're going to do it our way, um, and it's really fun to see. We've already done a wholesale sell in starting last December. And we already know that it's successful. And I just can't wait for people to get the opportunity, especially, you know where we started in the Pacific Northwest, or my roots are in New England, these wet places, and now I live in Tahoe, like they're really going to benefit from having Flylow durability, Flylow thoughtful design, with gore tex membrane and and then when you're taking it to the pinnacle of your sport, no matter where you are, whether you're in the dry Colorado Rockies, you're gonna appreciate having, you know, that durability and that Gore guarantee as well to make you even more confident in Flylow. So, you know, we have only scratched the surface of the core ski market, and I think there's a lot of room for us to consume market shareas we go and you know, we're still small and nimble. We can change we can change our designs faster than anybody else. So we will do so and represent our community.
Andrew Maff:It's very cool, man. I obviously really appreciate the story. It's always really cool for me to be able to, like, interview people like yourself, and then, like, a year, two, three years from now, look back at this podcast and see where you guys have gone and the growth, and be like, Man, that was his plan, and he did it. So it's very cool. I really appreciate it. Obviously, I want to thank you for being on the show. I'd love to give you the floor and let everyone know where they can find out more about you. And, of course, more about Flylow
Dan Abrams:Hey, it's not about me, it's about the Flylow community. So go to flylowgear.com, you know, check out the story. Check out, you know, like the product, and then use the dealer locator and find, if you can find a local brick and mortar, and goin there and ask the ask the shop kids why they like Flylow, yo, and and support them. We are channel agnostic. We don't care where you get it. We just, we just want you to have a good time and live life on your own terms.
Andrew Maff:Love it. Dan, thank you so much for being on the show. Obviously, everyone that tuned in, thank you as well. Please make sure you do the usual thing, rate review, subscribe all that fun stuff and whichever podcast platform you prefer, or head over to thee commshow.com to check out all of our previous episodes. But as usual, thank you all for joining us. See you all next time. Have a good one!
Narrator:Thank you for tuning in to the Ecomm show. Head over to Ecommshow.com to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform or on the BlueTusker YouTube channel. The Ecomm show is brought to you by Bluetusker, a full service digital marketing company specifically for E commerce sellers looking to accelerate their growth. Go to bluetuskr.com now for more information, make sure to tune in next week for another amazing episode of the E comm show!
